I'm too old for most countries and I'm not offended

[ironymaiden]

there's a bill to create a points system for US immigration. I am *almost* willing to go have a fight on facebook about it. because it's way overdue.

I try not to write about politics here, but fuck it. Frex, I have a friend who has two master's degrees and has been here for 20 years, doesn't even have a green card. Can't get one. Why? He's from India and the quota is always full. The thing I like about the concept of points is that you can apply yourself to improve your score. (My other anecdote is that I know someone here going to welding school because welding is on Australia's high demand list.)

I'd happily see the H1B system murdered in favor of points, rather than the tech sector relying on an underclass of people who a) pay taxes but get no safety net and b) are always a reorg away from being deported and c) manipulated via a and b.

I'm not saying the proposal as-is is perfect, but the idea is worth a bipartisan effort to get it right.

What do you think about immigration points?

Comments

[annofowlshire]

I'm trying to say something intelligent, but all I'm coming up with is that I'm still too emotional about visas and G having neared official deportation* and how it affected our lives to be intelligent. *sigh* (I mean, I like where we are now, but I don't love how we got here.) Which I guess says something, although maybe not intelligently.

ETA: He actually did get a deportation letter in the end--there were crossed wires with immigration and his lawyer and they didn't realize he'd already left the country.

[ironymaiden]

one of the changes I would want to make to the current proposal is giving points to folks who have been here (paying taxes!) for years and years.

of course, right now I wouldn't choose the US or the UK if I were shopping for a new home :(

[buhrger]

soviet canuckistan has points processes, although i think there are some other bureaucratic routes as well. (beyond refugee stuff, which is a different fish-kettle yet.) how well it works depends very much on specific situations. me = not an expert.

[ironymaiden]

I know it's still not easy to do, or fast. but I've looked into it casually and it seems to at least be more legible for an ordinary human than the US system is.

there's some weird folk beliefs in the US around how it must be really easy to get into the US*, and the "if x happens, I'm moving to Canada" thing, where people in the US think they are intrinsically valuable and automatically welcome with our neighbors to the north. I don't know if the latter comes from our collective memory of draft dodgers or what.

*one of my rabidly conservative cousins once posted a meme about how it was harder to get a fishing license than to get into the US. WTF.

[buhrger]

in this context i remember some chatter about how "if gay marriage becomes legal i'm moving to canada" which made us canuckistanis chortle some. and then aopolgize, of course, cuz we're like that.

[armiphlage]

It turns out that I don't have enough points to immigrate to Canada if I wasn't already Canadian.

[thomryng]

Well, if the system as proposed were in place in 1970, neither my mother nor I would have been allowed to immigrate. Hardly anybody I know would qualify to immigrate under this system, which pretty much requires English fluency and millions of investment dollars, a Nobel Prize, an Olympic medal, or a Doctorate in a STEM field.

Is a point system preferable to the mess that's in place now? Probably. But not this proposal, not by a long shot.

[ironymaiden]

I certainly don't qualify. But I don't qualify for Canada, Australia, or New Zealand either. Too old, not enough of the right skills. I ran through one of the US quizzes and came in at 27 out of 30 required points, which is about the margin that I miss by for other points countries that I've looked at.

to be clear, I don't think the current proposal should be taken as-is. far from it. it removes siblings and parents from the definition of family, and there's an overall reduction in the number of green cards.

right now I'm seeing a lot of flail on the left about the high standards in the proposed points system which ignores those cuts, and those cuts are what we should focus resistance on. but you know, "cuts green cards in half" isn't nearly as shareable as "Do you have a Nobel Prize?"

I'd really like to see an alternate immigration reform proposal based on points come out of this.

[thomryng]

I agree that the cuts are reprehensible. The problem is that so much of everything coming out of the White House these days is reprehensible, it's difficult to know what to focus on. I mean, they have a *staff* churning this stuff out.

[ironymaiden]

That's part of the strategy, to keep the firehose of bullshit spraying at full volume because no one can catch it all, and even if you do, it's exhausting - the industrial Gish Gallop.

[dorchadas]

The current quota system is explicitly racist, so nearly anything would be an improvement. But that nearly is pretty broad nowadays--I don't trust the current government to actually come up with something better.

Re: above, people who think it's easy to get into the US are right...but only in comparison to other countries' immigration systems. American immigration is a years-long bureaucratic nightmare and only looks good because of places like Japan, which sends people to your house to determine if your lifestyle is sufficiently Japanese before granting citizenship.

[belleweather]

Um, if your friend actually believes that, he should see an immigration lawyer. That's not actually how it works -- there is no country-based quota for green cards. Green Cards are granted automatically for people who come to the US on an immigrant visa. Immigrant visas are unlimited but certain countries wait longer than others because of volume. India is one of those countries, but only for sisters and brothers of US Citizens, where they wait an average of 1 year longer than people from other countries. (Of course, the wait is already like 14 years, so it sucks, but...)

If he's in the US on a temporary work visa, then his employer needs to file a petition for him and wait for it to become current. Those visas are numerically limited, but are NOT limited by country. It's a world-wide limitation (so his being from India has nothing to do with it) and I think we issue 45,000 per year or so?

I only point this out because the amount of outright misinformation that people -- sadly, ya'll, very much on the left as much as the right -- have about US Immigration is ENORMOUS, and no one really seems to care about getting the facts of the current system right, especially when it goes against preconceived notions about how immigration is. Do I love the current system? Nope. But at least I care enough to reflect it accurately.

[ironymaiden]

How do "unlimited visas" and the diversity lottery fit together?

[belleweather]

Anyone who wins the DV automatically gets a green card. The DV lottery is numerically limited world-wide to 50,000 cases per year, and not all countries qualify -- only those which don't already send a large number of immigrants to the US. The number is limited as well within countries so that one country can't win ALL the DVs (which is unlikely to happen). I think it's based on population, but it might also be based on representation in the pool of applicants. I can check. But exactly like any other immigrant visa, you apply and if the visa is approved you enter the US on your immigrant visa, wait a few months, and automatically get a green card in the mail.

[novel_machinist]

And even if they get accepted to start that process it can take DECADES

[philotera]

This one is a challenge for me because half my family would never have qualified to enter the country. While they are good people, they entered to find a better life than being tenant farmers in Guatemala, and were uneducated and with very little money. However, they made good lives, and their children are highly educated. One woman started her own company cleaning and restocking yachts for wealthy people. She began with just her and her two daughters, she now employees 15 people. They are all citizens now, though they maintain strong ties to Guatemala. I don't know what the answer is. This is just my story.

[ironymaiden]

I'd love to have the freedom of movement available in the EU, or the Commonwealth countries. A NAFTA for labor (actually there are NAFTA visas, I used to work with a guy who had one) or an agreement across the Americas could be good for everyone. Or have terrible unintended consequences, like the quinoa boom...