(no subject)

[ironymaiden]

from the onion interview:

Dan Savage: I actually think the solution to homophobia is eradicating misogyny. I think a lot of homophobia is hatred of women repackaged, 'cause gay men seem to preoccupy homophobes the most. It's usually about anal sex, and gay men are perceived as taking on the woman's role, and women are despised. The woman's role is less-than. And in a male-supremacy culture, men who take on the woman's role willingly kind of freak out some of the dudes. If you could eradicate misogyny, homophobia would evaporate. That's why I always tell women, "If you're dating a homophobe, you're dating a guy who's secretly a misogynist, who secretly hates you. And you shouldn't."

thoughts?

Comments

[mimerki.livejournal.com]

Seems strikingly accurate, really. I've never met a male homophobe who was not also sexist if not actively misogynistic.
The only female homophobes I've ever been aware of are wardroom wives and bring out my inner misogynist, so...

[mrdorbin.livejournal.com]

I think he comes close to the point, but ultimately misses it. (Disclaimer: I have come to loathe Dan Savage with a religious fervor I usually reserve for people who test out the ring tones on their new cell phone while on the bus). I can't remember where I read the quote anymore, but it went along the lines of 'lesbians scare men because they show women don't have to be dominated, and gay men scare men because they show men can be'. I think homophobia is based much more on the assumed bucking of gender roles that go along with it than with the actual butt sex (why 'straight-acting' is such a virtue and sissies get all the shit). It's about men and women not knowing their place, pure and simple. I believe even if you were to raise the woman's role (with some sort of magic wand, because I ain't holding my breath) to equally valued with a man's, a woman who acts like a man, and vice versa, will still catch shit for being 'unnatural', unless you also teach people that the roles don't really match up with people's genitalia nearly as well as you'd like.

And dude, he needs to learn how to speak so people don't think he believes lesbians get off scot-free.

[buhrger]

i've heard it suggested that homophobic males are that way because they're afraid that other guys will treat them the way they treat women. same sorta thing.

[scarlettina.livejournal.com]

Interesting perspective. He's right that I've never met a homophobe that I'd date; yes, generally such men show mysogynist tendencies as well.

I think, however, that it's simplistic to say "If you could eradicate misogyny, homophobia would evaporate." While the two may be related, they're still different kinds of prejudice, and I have found that people who hate will find all sorts of creative ways to do it.

[scarlettina.livejournal.com]

he needs to learn how to speak so people don't think he believes lesbians get off scot-free.

Maybe he does think lesians get off scot-free. It would be interesting to see his reaction to your pointing this out, methinks.

[boldfeather.livejournal.com]

I agree with it, but I don't think misogyny is the key reason for homophobia. Fear of the unknown plays a huge role - but that seems to be the cause for every human prejudice. I think a viable "solution" is education and time.

Now, excuse me, but I bought a Tim Horton's double double and can't seem to remember where I left it... and I must find it before it becomes cold and icky.

[mrdorbin.livejournal.com]

It occurred to me after I posted this that I should have pointed out that the vast majority of GLBT violent crime is directed towards the T, not the G. But we live in a world where Matthew Shephard gets a TV movie and Gwen Araujo gets...well, not much at all. Ironically, it's only when the crime is pointed at (white) men that it gets any attention at all.

[textualdeviance.livejournal.com]

I used to believe education would be the magic bullet. I still think it's important. But the fact that there are people who know queer folk and still vote for policies that harm us tells me it's not just fear of the unknown. I've been trying for a very long time to understand why people who claim to not be homophobic, in the "some of my best friends are..." vein, still don't bother doing anything to end discrimination.

There is no one single root of homophobia, which means all of them need to be addressed. But yes, Savage is right that it's misogyny--or, more accurately, rigid gender roles as Mr. Dorbin points out--that plays a big part (his statement almost reads word for word like stuff I've written--creepy, in a way!)

Other roots include religion, of course, generalized sexphobia, and a complete misunderstanding of the role sex plays in human behavior (hint: it's not just for making babies!) I think fear of the unknown plays a part in it, definitely, but mere outness and education in that getting to know you sense isn't really going to cure the problem.

I think we have to break down the psychological barriers to gender roles, too, else we face a future where "straight acting" Gs and Ls have rights, but the rest of us gender traitors don't. Considering how much gender role tyranny is coming even from within the queer community, that's a big task, but I don't think we can ignore it, if we truly want all of the community to be free.

[writersweekend.livejournal.com]

In my vast experience of men, I'd say most of them are homophobes. There are more non-homophobes in cities and in circles of friends that include hot women who walk their feminist talk, but...after being a social worker for 20 years, I'd say the root of all domestic violence is fear of women. Dan may just want to eradicate misogyny so he can pass.

[kijjohnson.livejournal.com]

I read an interesting article some years ago about racism and why it pervades, even in "Some of my best friends are..." situations. The African-American author's theory was that people excused their friends and acquaintances from the general class: "Joe is great; he's not shiftless/promiscuous/vain like the rest of the blacks/gay men/Miata owners."

This is a really uncomfortable thought, but it does point rather toward xenophobia as a root of things. People you know are people; people you don't know are members of possibly despicably and certainly untrustworthy classes. And some observers are incapable of seeing any members of a class as individuals.

[textualdeviance.livejournal.com]

I suppose in a way, the creation of rigid gender roles (as well as nationalities, etc) could be an extention of the fear of the unknown. If one can predict, just based on a quick glance, what a given person's relationship to oneself is, it certainly makes defending territory easier. Maybe sticking other humans into rigid categories is how we sniff each other's butts.

[kyooverse.livejournal.com]

Interesting you should mention this because your response basically boils down to that.... to reduce: Homophobia is caused by a bucking of gender roles.

But I think that is too pat, too.

(and I agree with you re: Savage. I forget what my reason was... he annoys me in a generic way these days)

But, the reason why I don't think he gets it is because he seems to forget or ignore the misogyny within the homosexual community -- by males, by females and by transfolks.

Yes, there is such a thing as internalized homophobia, but perhaps it isn't as tied to woman-hatred (or sexism) as much as it is tied to people, well, thinking that butt sex is not only unnatural, but nasty. Maybe it isn't that deep. Maybe, just maybe, homophobia is caused by people being uncomfortable with their own feelings of same sex desire (as was proved in a study years and years ago).

I mean, what he said sounds all cool, but it doesn't answer why there is so much misogyny within our own communities (especially gay male culture... look at Craigslist's M4M... and see how no one wants anyone who isn't "masculine" and everyone defines themselves as masculine... *shakes head*)

***

Have you heard about the B/black transwoman in DC who died because the EM's couldn't stop laughing when they realized she was a he?

I could go on and on looking at that score... Not just the T either, but the L, too.